off...   

da li znate ko je bio najglasniji ZA pristupoanje paktu?? Ivo Andric...e sad, kada se pominje to da je bio nobelovac...onda je hrvatima on hrvat, iako je sam rekao da pise srpsku knjizevnost, a kada se kaze da je bio za fasiste, onda je bio srbin na strani fasista?
mada, mozda se on bojao da nemci ne otvore neke logore po bg-u i da koju ljude, i mozda je shvatio da ce jednog dana da te zlocine iskomplexisrani prepisu srbima...(ovo cisto da se dotaknem teme)

@Kraljevicu, za ovaj post sam 1000% posto siguran da nema veze sa temom.

točno, tema su konc. logori u srbiji za koje ljudi nemaju pojma a ja se pitam zašto?

Pa da se vratimo na temu.

Dakle, neposredno nakon sto su Srbi odbacili trojni pakt, Hitler odobrava plan napada na Jugoslaviju. U planu, kaznjavanje Srbije i Srba dobija posebno mesto:

"Hitler made use of air bases in Hungary, Austria, Bulgaria and Romania in order to bomb Yugoslavia and Greece. He was determined to destroy Yugoslavia, and especially Serbia, who had triumphantly driven the Germans out of the Balkans in the end of the previous world war.
But not only that. Hitler sought to destroy the Serbian people as a nation. He was enraged that they, as well as the Greeks, would stand up to his imperial ambitions. Pursuant to this objective, he manipulated other ethnic groups existing within Yugoslavia, in an attempt to sever the country and use their latent animosities to eliminate the Serbian minorities there. Thus the Fuhrer detached Kosovo from Serbia creating, for the first time in history, a neo-Fascist Greater Albania. Hitler also created a Greater Croatia that included Bosnia-Hercegovina, under a regime (the Ustashe) that rivaled the Nazi one for its barbaric cruelty, as witnessed in death camps such as  Jasenovac, where hundreds of thousands of Serbs, Jews, Roma and “others” were exterminated."

http://www.balkanalysis.com/2006/04/06/belgrade-41-hitlers-invasion-of-serbia-65-years-later/

Glavna meta su mu Srbi, Jevreji, Romi, i svi oni koji se nisu uklapali u nacisticko poimanje "Novog reda":

"Hitler targeted both Serbs and Jews for destruction and elimination, as well as Gypsies, Roma and Sinti. The Nazi regime wanted to make Serbia "Juden frei", or Jew free, as well as “Zigeuner frei” or Gypsy free. Belgrade had a reputation as a tolerant, pluralist, and multi-ethnic, multi-cultural, and multi-religious community. The Nazi Chief of the Military Occupation Administration in Serbia, SS Gruppenfuehrer Harald Turner, even claimed that Serbia was the only country that was made Juden frei and Zigeuner frei by German occupation forces. This was not true. The Serbian population rallied to rescue Jews and Gypsies, who were welcomed in the Serbian resistance and guerrilla forces. But it showed the utter hatred and contempt Nazi Germany had for Serbia and for the Serbian people. This was due to the fact that Serbia refused to join the New Order in Europe, the European union of Nazi states under the leadership of Adolf Hitler."

http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/081.shtml

Logor na Banjici je osnovan jula 1941. godine kada su poceli prvi znaci oruzane pobune protiv okupatora.Bio je podeljen na deo koji je drzala Srpska policija i na Nemacki deo. Komandant logora i njegov pomocnik su bili Nemci:

"The Banjica camp in Belgrade was established in July 1941 and shut down at the end of September 1944, a month before the withdrawal of the Germans from Belgrade. At a meeting between the Serbian Police and members of the Gestapo in June 1941, it was decided that one of the barracks of the former Yugoslav Army in Belgrade’s suburbs be transformed into a concentration camp. Dragi Jovanovic signed the document to this effect and the first prisoners were brought in on May 9. Svetozar Vujkovic was appointed director of the Serbian part of the camp where there were only Serbian police. The smaller German part was directed by members of the Gestapo. The commander of the camp and along with his assistant were German. The German and Serbian parts of the camps were completely separate."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banjica_concentration_camp

U blizini Beograda, na teritoriji NDH osnovan je logor Sajmiste. U njemu je ubijen najveci broj Srpskih Jevreja. I ne samo Jevreja:

"The Sajmište concentration camp was one German concentration camps in Serbia, and in the beginning was almost exclusive for Serbian Jews. The number of inmates is estimated at 100.000. At least 40,000 Serbian and 8,000 Jewish victims perished in it. The camp was formed in December 1941. and shut down in September 1944."

"The majority of Serbian Jews were killed in the Sajmište camp. There is no precise information and documentation is almost non-existent, yet it is estimated that the number of victims comes to at least 8,000. The camp was formed on the left bank of the Sava by the railway bridge at the entrance into Belgrade where the pre-war trade fair was located. This is where the name Sajmište originated. This territory which was, at that time, deserted, uninhabited and marshy, was several kilometers from Zemun and formed a part of NDH (Independent State of Croatia) territory, so the Germans asked for it to be given to them.The commander, Androfer, his assistant and guards were SS-men

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sajmi%C5%A1te_concentration_camp"

Srpski general Milan Nedic je pozvan od strane Nemaca, a na molbu vidjenijih Srba tog vremena, 29. avgusta 1941. godine obrazovao marionetsku vladu:

"До напада нацистичке Немачке на Совјетску унију у окупираној Србији је владао ред и мир, што је омогућило примање великог броја српских избеглица. Број избеглица у Недићевој Србији је био: 600.000 Срба из западних делова Југославије, 86.000 деце са тог подручја, 150.000 Срба са Косова и Метохије, десетине хиљада Срба из Срема и Бачке, између 20 и 30.000 Словенаца и унитарних Хрвата. За све је њих требало обезбедити храну, дати им кров над главом, обућу и одећу, пружити им лекарску помоћ а децу школовати.

На инсистирање највиђенијих Срба прихватио је место председника владе Србије, и поред тога што је неколико пута одбијао јер га је снашла тешка судбина када је у експлозији муниције у Смедереву изгубио сина јединца и трудну снаху. Влада која је носила назив Влада Националног спаса оформљена је 29. августа 1941 са ђенералом Миланом Недићем на челу и постојала је све до 4. октобра 1944.
Као председик владе Недић се залагао за мир у Србији и покушају да четничке и партизанске одреде врати из западне Србије кућама. Када је ствар постала нерешива, Недић је приступио ликвидацији комунистичког покрета кога је сматрао као покретом који прети миру у Србији. Отпочиње са формирањем добровољачких одреда у циљу борбе против комуниста.

Након повлачења партизанских снага из Србије покрај 1941. Недић организује Србију. Преосталим четничким одредима у Србији дозвољава легализацију, тј. стављања под његовом командиом. У тренуцима немачког слома, видећи да ће пасти у руке комуниста одлучује да напусти земљу. Из Београда креће 6 октобра 1944 за Аустрију, у Кицбилу где ће се сакупити и отали чланови владе. Тамо покушава да оформи поново српску владу, али без успeха.

Енглези 1. јануара 1946 испоручили Милана Недића новим југословенским властима. Боравак Недића у истражном затвору је био тајанствен.Наводно се припремао процес.Милан Недић је довођен сваког дана на саслушање код мајора Мила Милатовића. 5.фебруара су београдске новине објавиле да је Милан Недић извршио самоубиство у истражном затвору тако што је искористио непажњу стражара и скочио кроз прозор."

http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%9D%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%9B

Dakle, jasno je da su koncentracione logore u Srbiji osnivali Nemci. Cak i logor na Banjici, koji je osnovan dosta pre nego sto je Milan Nedic osnovao marionetsku vladu u okupiranoj Srbiji.



Tacno je to. Nemci su ga takvim napravili. Njihov plan je bio ne samo da Srbiju nacine "Juden frei" nego i "Serben frei" i "Roma frei" i...

"The Nazi Chief of the Military Occupation Administration in Serbia, SS Gruppenfuehrer Harald Turner, even claimed that Serbia was the only country that was made Juden frei and Zigeuner frei by German occupation forces."

Sto se tice Jevrejskih zrtava sa teritorije Jugoslavije, podaci o njihovom broju variraju u zavisnosti od izvora. Tiger2005 je izneo podatke, doduse bez izvora, ali na njima se, recimo, spominje i Banat, a i Vojvodina, iako je Banat deo Vojvodine.
Naime, postoje i drugi podaci, mada zaista ne zelim da licitiram brojem Jevrejskih zrtava. Tako sam, naime, naisao i na ove podatke:

13.   Yugoslavia               75,000              55,000         73.3 %   http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/jewvicts.html

Yugoslavia     60,000     80 %    (Includes Jews from Bosnia, Croatia, Rab, and Serbia. Most Jews in the Italian Zone of Occupation were not deported or released to the Nazi or Ustasa.)

http://www.holocaustchronicle.org/HolocaustAppendices.html

No, ponavljam da ne zelim da licitiram brojem Jevrejskih zrtava. Ako podjemo od cinjenice da je na Sajmistu ubijen najveci broj spskih Jevreja (8.000) da su ustase i nacisti na teritoriji NDH ubili 30-32000 jevreja (i oko 7-8000 Jevreja uputili u logore smrti u Nemackoj i Poljskoj)   http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/jasenovac/ i na to dodamo zrtve sa teritorija van NDH i okupirane Srbije, kao i Jevrejske zrtve mnogih pokolja koji su se desavali (streljanja u Kragujevcu, Kraljevu, Racija u Novom sadu, itd...) dolazimo do pribliznog broja, koji je izmedju spomenutih 55.000 i 67.228. Mada je procenat Jugoslovenskih Jevreja stradalih u Holokaustu velik.


@tiger2005, ako zelimo biti tacni, medju prvim zatvorenicima nisu bili ni partizani (u maju 1941 ih nije ni bilo) ni protivnici Nedicevog rezima (njegova vlada je osnovana 29. avgusta 1941.) Oni su se kao zatvorenici pojavili kasnije. Cinjenica je da su dobar deo zatvorenika cinili taoci, koji su bivali streljani za odmazdu a po vec cuvenom sistemu "100 za jednoga". Beograd je, pogotovo u drugoj polovini 1941. godine, konstantno putem lepljenih plakata obavestavan o streljanjima taoca. Radilo se o velikom broju streljanih, jer je ustanak bio u punom zamahu.

Dakle, teza da su Srbi osnivali logore u kojima su unistavali Jevreje je krajnje pretenciozna i zlonamerna, i dolazi od, najblaze receno, neobavestenih. Pokusaj izjednacavanja nekih stvari iz istorije nije retka pojava, i pokretanje ove teme treba gledati na taj nacin.

Uostalom, da vidimo sta o tome kazu oni, o kojima se u ovoj temi radi. Dakle, Srpski Jevreji:

1. Djordje Labovic: (Antisemitizam i Srbi)   http://www.yurope.com/zines/republika/arhiva/2001/262/262_14.html

"Neosporna je cinjenica da na mapi Evrope postoje neuralgicne oblasti u kojima je vihor antisemitizma ucestalo besneo svom snagom, odnoseci milione zrtava (Rusija, balticke zemlje, Ukrajina, Poljska, Rumunija, Austrija, Madjarska, Nemacka, Francuska, Spanija); postoje i odredjene zemlje u kojima su pogromi bili retki ili relativno slabi (Bugarska, Grcka, Holandija, Svajcarska, Engleska); dok u nekim zemljama pogroma uopste nije ni bilo (Srbija, Crna Gora, Makedonija, Italija, skandinavske zemlje). Naravno, to ne znaci da u Srbiji nije nikada bilo antisemitizma, ali ta je pojava u vecini slucajeva bila kratkotrajna i uvek benigne prirode. S vremena na vreme, zavisno od istorijskih okolnosti i ekonomskih prilika, rastao je ili opadao broj antisemita. Premda je medju politicarima, piscima, prosvetiteljima, trgovcima i svestenicima povremeno bivalo dosta zapazenih logisticara i medijatora antisemitizma, ipak, najveci broj antisemita u Srbiji pripadao je trecoj grupi – pasivnim posmatracima. Sve se uglavnom svodilo na price i prepricavanja, spletkarenja i ogovaranja, pri cemu su neki od njih mrzeli sve Jevreje na svetu – osim onih koje su licno poznavali. Njih su pozivali na krsne slave, zajedno se veselili na svetkovinama ili tugovali na sahranama, skupa bancili po kafanama ili se rame uz rame borili na mnogobrojnim ratistima. Od presudnog je znacaja da grupa »izvodjaca grubih radova« po brojcanosti nikada nije dostigla kriticnu masu, neophodnu da bi doslo do erupcije nasilja. Istina, u holokaustu je istrebljeno osamdeset posto jevrejskog stanovnistva Kraljevine Jugoslavije, medjutim, »zasluga« za tu masovnost pripada iskljucivo nemackim, madjarskim, hrvatskim i bugarskim fasistima. Medju Srbima je, doduse, bilo kolaboracionista (ljoticevci), koji su nacistima posluzili kao ispomoc u njihovim prljavim poslovima, ali oni nikada nisu predstavljali snagu koja bi mogla da dejstvuje samostalno. "
"Na pragu novog milenijuma, u Srbiji zivi jos svega oko 3000 Jevreja, sto iznosi 0,03 procenta ukupnog broja stanovnika. Buduci da je vise od polovine te populacije starija od 50 godina, taj ce se broj neprestano smanjivati i, kako sociolozi i statisticari predvidjaju, za dvadeset do trideset godina Jevreji ce u Srbiji zauvek nestati. Kakav paradoks! Jedan od retkih naroda koji nikada u svojoj hiljadugodisnjoj istoriji nije proganjao i unistavao Jevreje, prvi ce u Evropi ostvariti »konacno resenje jevrejskog pitanja«: u njihovoj zemlji nece vise biti Jevreja. Ostace samo uspomene na njihovo vekovno prisustvo: nazivi ulica, spomen-ploce, groblja i literatura – kao svedoci vecne price o neumitnoj prolaznosti."

2. Jasa Almuli:     http://www.srpska-mreza.com/History/ww2/Jews/Almuli.html

(Recently concerted attacks upon Serbs have appeared in various publications concerning the persecution of Jews within Serbia during World War II. In this connection we reprint here two letters published in The Times Literary Supplement of October 8, 1993., and the London Review of Books of November 18,1993., respectively both written by Jasa Almuli, past President of the Jewish Community of Belgrade and past Vice-President of Jewish Communities in Yugoslavia.)

"Sir, As one of the very few Serbian Jews who survived the Holocaust, I am deeply hurt by Ante Knezevic’s letter (September 24), in which he shows a lack of respect, both for the historical truth and for the Jewish victims of genocide in Serbia, by implying that they were not exclusive destroyed by the Germans. The fact that over 90 per cent of Serbian Jews were exterminated, he presents “as a result of widespread (Serbian) collaboration with the Nazis “.

The very early destruction of Jews in Serbia - in large numbers - was not the result of Serbian collaboration with the Germans, but to a large extent the result of the Serbian resistance to them. The Germans invaded Yugoslavia in April 1941., dismembered the country, created a puppet state in Croatia with the help of the local fascist Ustasa and put occupied Serbia under direct German military rule. In July of 1941., the Serbs followed Tito’s call for partisan war and, after inflicting many losses on the German Army the Serbs suffered cruel reprisals. For each German soldier killed, 100 Serbian hostages were executed by the Wehrmacht, and for each wounded soldier fifty hostages were taken. The Germans rounded up all Jewish civilian males between the ages of sixteen and seventy and executed them, along with gipsies, captured Serbian patriots and imprisoned leftists. After the execution of all Jewish males, the Germans put their widows and orphans in a concentration camp near Belgrade and gassed them all in a mobile gas van. The concentration camp was run exclusively by the Germans, whose SS did the killing without any participation by the Serbs.

In the Study XV published by the Israell Memorial Museum, Yad Vashem, in 1983., Christopher R. Browning summarised his findings in an article, ”The Final Solution in Serbia”:
“In Serbia the executioners were primarily German army personnel, not SS units… The firing squads operated under the pretext of carrying out reprisals for casualties inflicted by partisans, not with the avowed aim of exterminating the entire Jewish population. Uncertainty over the ultimate goal and scope of Nazi Jewish policy was not prolonged, however. The survivors of the fall massacre, mostly women and children, were placed in a concentration camp at Semlin just across the Sava River from Belgrade and, regardles of age and sex, were murdered in a gas van in the spring of 1942.”

The American Jewish historian Raul Hilberg, in his book The Destruction of the European Jews (revised edition, 1985.), states:
”The Serbs abhorred the foreign yoke under practically all forms and for that treason occupied Serbia was the theatre of an uninterrupted partisan war. As in Russia, the German army was punishing the manifestations of rebellion by executing the hostages , above all the Jewish hostages”.
As for the Jewish women and children in Serbia, Hilberg writes:
“ In December… the military units undertook the transfer of the families of the executed hostages to Semlin where the commander of the Security police and of the SD , Schafer , was awaiting his victims…In the beginning of March 1942., a special vehicle arrived from Berlin, a gas van. Every day except Sundays and holidays the women and children were put into the van…

The operation ended on 10. May. Satisfied, Dr Shafer reported that the problem of Jews in Serbia did not exist any more.”

The role of the Germans in the destruction of the Jews in Serbia is also described in detail in the so - called “Black Book”, by the Federation of Jewish Communities in Yugoslavia (1957) and in Jasa Roman’s “Jews of Yugoslavia: Victims of genocide and participants in the liberation war” (1980), neither of which points the finger at the Serbs as the culprits.

JASA ALMULI
London N3

Ja toliko. Izvinjavam se na opsirnosti, ali tema je takva da ne trpi improvizacije.

ma ti napišeš da su logorom upravljali njemci a onda ti se u tekstu spominje srbin kao zapovjednik logora

nadalje, nedić je hitlera obavijestio da je beograd prvi europski grad očišćen od židova dakle bilo je stradanja židova i to planskih. pa pročitaj šta ti je taj jasa almuli rekao: da ih je ubijeno više od 90%, respektabilan omjer nema šta.

to nije teza nego povijesna istina koju možeš prihvatiti ili ne, a ti možeš pričati i ovo i ono, kako su to radili njemci i poneki srbi izdajnici ali tako je bilo i u svim ostalim marionetskim državama 2.svj. rata. u čemu je razlika nedićeve srbije i pavelićeve ndh?

Srpska policija je imala svoj deo, a Nemci svoj. Svako je upravljao svojim delom. Lako je za prevesti:

"Svetozar Vujkovic was appointed director of the Serbian part of the camp where there were only Serbian police. The smaller German part was directed by members of the Gestapo. The commander of the camp and along with his assistant were German. The German and Serbian parts of the camps were completely separate."

I ovo je lako za prevesti:

"The Nazi Chief of the Military Occupation Administration in Serbia, SS Gruppenfuehrer Harald Turner, even claimed that Serbia was the only country that was made Juden frei and Zigeuner frei by German occupation forces"

Tako je. 90 % . I sta jos kaze, ko je to obavio?

"The concentration camp was run exclusively by the Germans, whose SS did the killing without any participation by the Serbs."

A gde su zavrsili?

"This territory which was, at that time, deserted, uninhabited and marshy, was several kilometers from Zemun and formed a part of NDH (Independent State of Croatia) territory, so the Germans asked for it to be given to them.The commander, Androfer, his assistant and guards were SS-men"

A kako su zavrsili?

"In the beginning of March 1942., a special vehicle arrived from Berlin, a gas van. Every day except Sundays and holidays the women and children were put into the van…"

Naravno da su ovo istorijski fakti. I kao takvima nema sta da se doda ili oduzme. I ja nepricam ovo ili ono. Samo sam naveo i citirao izvore.

Ponovicu jos jednom:

Dakle, teza da su Srbi osnivali logore u kojima su unistavali Jevreje je krajnje pretenciozna i zlonamerna, i dolazi od, najblaze receno, neobavestenih. Pokusaj izjednacavanja nekih stvari iz istorije nije retka pojava, i pokretanje ove teme treba gledati na taj nacin.

No, ako si samo mislio da su Srbi neobavesteni o postojanju konc logora na teritoriji okupirane Srbije, onda si u krivu.

A razlika je kao izmedju saveznika i okupirane zemlje.

Yell,ja sam ti ljepo napisao izvor tih podataka gdje sam naveo koliko je Jevreja gdje poginulo.Ako zivis u Beogradu otidji u Jevrejski holocaust museum i tu ces pronaci te podatke..

tvoj sljedeći navod pobija prethodni: ako je srpski dio logora bio veći a njemački manji i ako su bili potpuno odvojeni kako to da su samo njemci ubijali i isključivo oni zapovjedali logorom?

šta je nedić bio suradnik saveznika?

opet ti govorim:
1. upravitelj je bio srbin-streljali ga partizani
2. zapovjednik je bio srbin
3. nedić objavljuje da je beograd čist od židova
4. ubijeno 90% židova

eto to su činjenice, neosporne a ti pričaj i kopiraj i lijepi

Sve je u redu tiger2005. Naravno da ne sporim podatke. Samo sam naveo jos nekoliko procena.

@umorni

I sta jos kazu oni koji su preziveli holokaust?