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A, znaci.. pogodila sam metu...  Smile
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Samo mi nije jasno koja si to istorijska desavanja akcentirao - nisam primetio tvoj stav. Drugim recima - koja je poenta pitanja? Nadam se da ne planiras da predjes u zrtvovanje bikova  Smile Smile.

A sto rece Anea - meta je pogodjena u sridu!  Smile
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"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: Only love can do that."
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mozda uvek treba ici za pamecu,osim u ljubavi

Zodijak Gemini
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Pitanje je bilo sasvim prosto,zeleo sam da cujem tudje misljenje o gore navedenom,ne razumem zasto neko ima potrebu da od svega pravi sprdnju,a ako treba da opsirnije pisem radi vas dvoje i da malo "plasticnije' obrazlozim,drage volje,samo recite
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Svrha sprdnje, shale i smeha je da donose radost u covekovo srce i oslobadjaju ga straha i laznog osecaja postovanju prema necemu sto ne zasluzuje postovanje. I ama bas nista na ovom svetu ne moze biti iskljuceno od shale i sprdnje jer je svaki sekund iskrenog smeha vredniji nego sve molitve ovog sveta zajedno. Kada covek pocne da u svoj zivot uskracuje od smeha on ubija jedan deo Boga u sebi.

A sad bi bilo lepo da nam malo "plasticnije" objasnis zasto te je kult zrtvovanja bikova toliko fascinirao. I nije da nama dvoma objasnjavas nego svima koji dolaze na ove diskusije a mozda nece da ucestvuju u njima.

Don't worry be happy. Smile
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"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: Only love can do that."
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decky ,odakle ti info da je kult mitre bio toliko popularan. koliko ja znam taj kult je bio ogranichen na posvecene osobe i zbog toga je i propao (mali broj chlanova da se suprotstave hriscanima)
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Ne secam se gde sam procitao pravo da ti kazem ali mi je ostalo tako (mozda nisam upravu). Dopuni me ako imas neki tacniji izvor. Evo nekih delova koji govore na temu Hriscanstvo-Mitraizam (izvor wikipedia) ima i referenci pa moze i dalje da se istrazuje.

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There is much speculation that Christian beliefs were influenced by Mithraic belief. Ernest Renan, in The Origins of Christianity, promoted the idea that Mithraism was the prime competitor to Christianity in the second through the fourth century AD, although some scholars feel the written claims that the emperors Nero, Commodus, Septimius Severus, Caracalla, and the Tetrarchs were initiates are dubious as there is little evidence that Mithraic worship was accorded official status as a Roman cult other than its official form as 'Sol Invictus,' the first universal religion of the Greco Roman world.

Bull and cave themes are found in Christian shrines dedicated to the archangel Michael, who, after the legalization of Christianity, became the patron Saint of soldiers. Many of those shrines were converted Mithraea, for instance the sacred cavern at Monte Gargano in Apulia, refounded in 493. It is hard to avoid the conclusion that the Mithras cult was transferred to the previously unvenerated archangel.

Bull and crypt are linked in the Catholic saint Saturnin (frequently "Sernin" or "Saturninus") of Toulouse, France. The Mithraeum is retained as a crypt under his earliest church, evocatively named "Notre-Dame du Taur."

Some scholars would argue that because the Gospels are thought to have been mostly before 100 and that since very little is known of Roman Mithraism until after 100 that it is implausible to say that Christianity borrowed its doctrines from Mithraism; some have even suggested that Mithraism may have, in fact, borrowed elements from Christianity. Most other scholars disagree with these conclusions, since Mithraism goes way back to 1400 years before Christ.

A better determinant of borrowing, is to compare core doctrines between Christianity and Mithraism. The adoption of imagery or icons or festivals is fairly peripheral (such as the adoption by christendom of winter solstice or Saturnalia festivals as Christmas) but seldom reflects basic religious tenets. A further example of this is the various gnostic cults (such as the Marcionites and Valentinians) which adopted the personage of Jesus or the concept of a Savior, yet did not adopt the underlying doctrinal elements.

It has been speculated that the ancient Orobouros of Mithraism (the encircling serpent about to bite its own tail) was adapted for a Christian symbol of the limited confines of time and space. The snake around a rock is also reminscent of the Midgard serpent, Jörmungandr, who was said to surround Midgard (the Earth) according to Norse traditions. Thus similar religious ideas or iconography does not necessarily indicate borrowing in either direction.


According to Martin A. Larson, in The Story of Christian Origins (1977), Mithraism and Christianity derived from the same sources, originally from the savior cult of Osiris: a rarely discussed view among Mithraic and Christian scholars but which can account for the similarities without assuming a Christian derivation from Mithraism. He also believes that the Essenes were Jewish Pythagoreans, whose members not only gave birth to Christianity as Essenes, but were directly influenced by Zoroastrian doctrine as Pythagoreans — a view probably shared by Cumont.[1] Mithraism, in Larson's view, was an established but exclusive sect devoted to social justice, and was assimilated by state-sponsored Christianity before being disposed of in name.

"The resemblances between the two hostile churches were so striking as to impress even the minds of antiquity" (Cumont, 193). Like Origen (an early Christian writer and in this respect a peculiarity among the other patristic writers), Mithraism held that all souls pre-existed in the ethereal regions with God, and inhabited a body upon birth. Similar to Pythagorean, Jewish, and Pauline theology, life then becomes the great struggle between good and evil, spirit and body, ending in judgment, with the elect being saved. "They both admitted to the existence of a heaven inhabited by beautiful ones. . .and a hell peopled by demons situate in the bowels of earth" (Cumont 191).

Both religions used the rite of baptism, and each participated in an outwardly similar type of sacrament, bread and wine. Both the birth of Mithra and the birth of Christ have been celebrated on December 25th, although nowhere does the New Testament claim that Christ was born on this day. Both Mithra and Christ were supposedly visited by shepherds and Magi. It has been claimed that both Mithraism and Christianity considered Sunday their holy day, though for different reasons, although the evidence that Mithradists practiced weekly worship, any more than any other pagan religion of the time, is lacking. Many have noted that the title of Pope (father) is found in Mithraic doctrine and seemingly prohibited in Christian doctrine. The words Peter (rock) and mass (sacrament) have significance in Mithraism.

Mithraism and early Christianity considered abstinence, celibacy, and self-control to be among their highest virtues. Both had similar beliefs about the world, destiny, heaven and hell, and the immortality of the soul. Their conceptions of the battles between good and evil were similar (though Mithraism was more dualistic[2]), including a great and final battle at the end of times. Mithraism's flood at the beginning of history was deemed necessary because what began in water would end in fire, according to Mithraic eschatology. Both religions believed in revelation as key to their doctrine. Both awaited the last judgment and resurrection of the dead. Christ and Mithra were both referred to as the "Logos" (Larson 184), a term meaning the divine "Word" or "Reason" and first used in this sense by the Jewish philosopher Philo in the first-century CE.

When inducted into the degree of Leo, he was purified with honey, and baptised, not with water, but with fire, as John the Baptist declared that his successor would baptise. After this second baptism, initiates were considered "participants," and they received the sacrament of bread and wine commemorating Mithra's banquet at the conclusion of his labors (Larson 190).

Although the cult of Mithra rivaled Christianity in Rome, they were among different social classes. Mithra was popular among soldiers and nobles after four centuries of growth. Mithraism had a disadvantage to Christian populism by barring women and emphasizing the elitist nature of the belief (being in the latter respect closer to Gnosticism than Christianity). Under emperors like Julian and Commodus, Mithra became the patron of Roman armies (Cumont 87). Christians, however, referred to themselves as soldiers of Christ. They venerated Jesus by calling him Light of the World or Son of Righteousness. Christians also claimed their savior's death was marked by a solar eclipse. Sunday became the primary day of worship for Christians, despite observing the Jewish Sabbath for centuries.

Mithra's birthday was adopted by Christians in the 4th century A.D. as the birth of Christ (J. Smith 146). Some claimed Mithra's mother was a mortal virgin. Others said Mithra had no mother, but was miraculously born of a female rock, or the petra genetix, conceived by God's lightning (de Riencourt 135). Mithra's birth was witnessed by shepherds and by Magi bearing gifts to his sacred birth-cave of the Rock (J. Smith 146). Mithra's image was buried in a rock tomb, a sacred cave that represented his Mother's womb. This was ritualistically removed each year, and he was said to live again. Mithra's triumph and ascension to heaven were celebrated during the spring equinox, as during Easter, when the sun rises toward its apogee.

Mithra performed miracles of raising the dead, healing the sick, making the blind see, the lame walk, and casting out devils. As a Peter, son of the petra (rock), he carried the "keys" to the kingdom of heaven, as St. Peter is said to have the keys to the gates of Heaven (H. Smith 129). Before returning to heaven, Mithra had his Last Supper with his twelve disciples, who represented the twelve signs of the zodiac. In memory, his worshipers partook of a sacramental meal of bread marked with a cross (Hooke 89, Cumont 160). This was one of seven Mithraic sacraments, alleged to be the models for the Christian seven sacraments (James 250). It was called mized and in Latin missa, meaning "released". This is the word in later ecclesiastical Latin for "Mass".[3]

Mithra's cave-temple on the Vatican Hill was seized by Christians in 376 A.D. (J. Smith 146). Later Christian bishops in Rome pre-empted even the Mithraic high priest's title of Pater Patrum, which became Papa, or Pope (H. Smith 252). Gregory I, in the sixth-century, was the first Christian bishop on record who used the title of himself. Mithraism entered into many doctrines of the Manichean Gnostic sect of Christianity (which was condemned as heretical), and continued to influence its old rival for over a thousand years (Cumont, Oriental 154)). The Mithraic festival of Epiphany, marking the arrival of sun-priests ("Magi") at the Savior's birthplace, was adopted by the Christian church only as late as 813 A.D. (Brewster 55).

It is possible, even likely, that Christianity emphasized common features that attracted Mithra followers, perhaps the crucifix appealed to those Mithra followers who had crosses already branded on their foreheads. In art, the halo was a well-known depiction of Mithra, a true sun-god, but which also depicts Christ in a similar way. However, differences such as prognostication by star gazing were regarded as heretical by Christians according to Halakaic sanctions.

Justin Martyr, in a discussion with the Jewish apologist Trypho, wrote: "'And when those who record the mysteries of Mithras say that he was begotten of a rock, and call the place where those who believe in him are initiated a cave, do I not perceive here that the utterance of Daniel, that a stone without hands was cut out of a great mountain, has been imitated by them, and that they have attempted likewise to imitate the whole of Isaiah's words? For they contrived that the words of righteousness be quoted also by them. . . . And when I hear, Trypho,' said I, 'that Perseus was begotten of a virgin, I understand that the deceiving serpent counterfeited also this.'" (Dialogue with Trypho, LXXVIII). Tertullian also demonized Mithraism as a perverted truth planted by the devil.

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"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: Only love can do that."
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I malo poredjenja izmedju praznika Jalde (rodjenje boga Sunca Mitre) i Bozica (rodjenja Hristovog) - izvor je isti

---------------------------------------

The festival was considered extremely important in pre-Islamic Iran (Persia) and continues to be celebrated to this day since 4000 years ago. Some historians believe that the festival spread to Europe through contacts between the Roman and Persian empires and was eventually replaced by Christmas; a theory that accounts for the celebration of Christmas on 25 December, rather than the later date of January 6 that is believed to be the correct date of birth of Christ by eastern orthodox church.

Yalda, a Syriac word imported into the Persian language by the Syriac Christians means birth (tavalod and meelaad are from the same origin). It is a relatively recent arrival and it is refereed to the "Shab e Cheleh Festival" a celebration of Winter Solstice on December 21. Forty days before the next major Persian festival "Jashn-e Sadeh" this night has been celebrated in countless cultures for thousands of years. The ancient Roman festivals of Saturnalia (God of Agriculture, Saturn) and Sol Invicta (Sun God) are amongst the best known in the Western world.

In most ancient cultures, including Persia, the start of the solar year has been marked to celebrate the victory of light over darkness and the renewal of the Sun. For instance, Egyptians, four thousand years ago celebrated the rebirth of the sun at this time of the year. They set the length of the festival at 12 days, to reflect the 12 divisions in their sun calendar. They decorated with greenery, using palms with 12 shoots as a symbol of the completed year, since a palm was thought to put forth a shoot each month.

The Persians adopted their annual renewal festival from the Babylonians and incorporated it into the rituals of their own Zoroastrian religion. The last day of the Persian month Azar is the longest night of the year, when the forces of Ahriman are assumed to be at the peak of their strength. While the next day, the first day of the month "Day" known as "khoram rooz" or "khore rooz" (the day of sun) belongs to Ahura Mazda, the Lord of Wisdom. Since the days are getting longer and the nights shorter, this day marks the victory of Sun over the darkness. The occasion was celebrated in the festival of "Daygan" dedicated to Ahura Mazda, on the first day of the month "Day"

The Persian traditions merged in ancient Rome, in a festival to the ancient god of seedtime, Saturn. The Romans exchanged gifts, partied and decorated their homes with greenery. Following the Persian tradition, the usual order of the year was suspended. Grudges and quarrels forgotten, wars would be interrupted or postponed. Businesses, courts and schools were closed. Rich and poor became equal, masters served slaves, and children headed the family. Cross-dressing and masquerades, merriment of all kinds prevailed. A mock king, the Lord of Misrule, was crowned. Candles and lamps chased away the spirits of darkness.

Another related Roman festival celebrated at the same time was dedicated to Sol Invictus ("the invincible sun"), originally known as Mithra Originally a Persian deity, this cult was imported by Emperor Heliogabalus into Rome and Sol was made god of the state. With the spread of Christianity, Christmas celebration became the most important Christian festival.

In the third century various dates, from December to April, were celebrated by Christians as Christmas. January 6 was the most favored day because it was thought to be Jesus' Baptismal day (in the Greek Orthodox Church this continues to be the day to celebrate Christmas). In year 350, December 25 was adopted in Rome and gradually almost the entire Christian Church agreed to that date, which coincided, with Winter Solstice and the festivals, Sol Invicta and Saturnalia. Many of the rituals and traditions of the pagan festivals were incorporated into the Christmas celebration and are still observed today.



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"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: Only love can do that."
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Mithraism had a disadvantage to Christian populism by barring women and emphasizing the elitist nature of the belief (being in the latter respect closer to Gnosticism than Christianity)

evo na shta sam mislio ...
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PA mislim da je vise bila poenta da je Rimska vlast podsticala razvoj Mitraizma jer je kult podrzavao polozaj vlasti kao neke vreste polubogova. Elitizam ne dolazi iz cinjenice da ga je praktikovala samo elita nego da je kult u svojim verovanjima podrzavao elitu (kao i Hriscanstvo). Kult je bio prihvacen od razlicitih naroda Rimskog carstva jer je imao korene u razlicitim mudrostima Starog Veka. Da li je bio najpopularniji ili ne zista ne znam 100%.
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"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: Only love can do that."
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Poznata licnost


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Kada si već kod rimske vlasti koja je podsticala mitraizam, pogledaj samo oblik papske kape.  I to je uzeto iz mitraizma, kao i mnogi drugi rimski obredi.
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Nije bitno sta imas, bitno je koliko dajes.
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